Episode 06 - Coaching Session: Shyness, Photographic Style & Confidence
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Patrick Leung on Instagram: @patrickkleung
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Matt Korinek: What's up everyone? It's Matt and welcome to the Photo Proventure Vlogast.
I really appreciate all the people who have been watching these episodes. And if you like what you're seeing, please hit the like button and subscribe to this channel so that I can get the one word out about what we're up to here.
Now in today's episode, I am talking to Patrick, a Toronto photographer who struggles a bit with being an introvert and a bit of a shy photographer. So we talk a bit about whether or not he should lean into that or try to change who he is. We also go through a lot of other mindset things like why you can't see your own style and how do you use other photographers more as inspiration rather than a reason to think to yourself "I'm not good enough."
And if you didn't know, this Vlogcast is also available as a podcast. So if you don't have time to sit down and watch this episode, you can always cue it up in your favourite podcasting platform and listening to what me and Patrick talked about.
Let's get into it.
[SONIC BRANDING AND OPENING MUSIC]
Matt Korinek: Patrick, it's super nice to meet you. Welcome to the Photo Proventure Vlogcast. How's it going today?
Patrick Leung: It's good. I just had a couple of meetings today.
Matt Korinek: So before we get into what you'd like some coaching on today, I'd love for you to just share how did photography find you?
Patrick Leung: Okay. So when I to think back a few years, I'm going to say it's probably back in college.
I have a degree in kinesiology. And in my last year of college, I had some spare credits that I could just take anything I wanted to. I remember growing up, my dad had this old Canon AE-1. And I always remember growing up as a kid, there was no film in it, and I would just take pictures because of the sound of the shutter.
I guess, fast forward to college, I figured, you know what, why don't I just take a film photography class, just for fun. I don't remember why I decided to take that film course, but I guess I had some sort of interest in taking pictures and honestly, I also took it because I thought it'd be easy "A". Which actually didn't get an "A" on. It was actually a lot harder than I thought.
And then from there, I just grew up just traveling. And of course, you know, I always kind of had a camera in hand.
Instagram, obviously wasn't a thing. So at the time Flickr was kind of like the thing for photos. And then I remember coming across again, I don't remember the names of the photographers, but they just had this aesthetic to the pictures are taking.
And, if I remember correctly, the girl was taking just like still life of things around the home and yeah, I'm not sure what it was. It was just something to the simplicity of the photos that really made me more interested in taking pictures at the time.
And then I bought my first DSLR. It was a Pentax. It was a Pentax K100, 1000, something like that.
Matt Korinek: Yeah, I think my dad had the same camera.
Patrick Leung: At the time was a lot of money, of course, but I knew nothing about photography. I don't even know what depth of field was. And I remember I was playing tennis with my cousin and I had my camera with me and I took the photo at the time, I was just kind of mesings around settings, I knew nothing. And I remember, I think I shot it at like, I think the kit lens, the lowest end goes like f/3.5 and zoomed it up to 70 and I took a picture of my cousin and I'm like, you know, I got the blur. I'm like, Whoa, okay! That's how you do it.
Matt Korinek: Yeah.
Patrick Leung: And then from there just slowly, but surely started taking more photos of just again, traveling.
I remember asking my coworkers at the time at the clinic I was working at: Hey, can I take portraits of you?
And then, yeah, the rest is history. And then just obviously very, very slowly, I just got deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of photography.
Matt Korinek: Yeah.
Patrick Leung: And now it's like a drug. Like I feel like every time I shoot, I just want to, like shoot more.
I love it, but you know, that's kind of the reason I wanted to talk to you about is like: I'm super introverted. And I feel like, especially as a portrait photographer, I always kind of grew up thinking that as a portrait photographer, I would need to be extroverted, you know?
And then all of a sudden it kind of stems into a bit of confidence issues. I think I can make it work given, you know, my personality that I have to work with, to do portrait photography, but it's always been a bit of a crutch of mine is confident in thinking that, you know, I do have, you know, something that's worthwhile to pursue portrait photography and to not second guess myself.
Matt Korinek: Totally. Well, I mean, I can really relate to your journey because I was also bachelor of science major in university.
Patrick Leung: Nice! Okay.
Matt Korinek: And photography was sort of the side interest that hit me in my, my last year of university. And then during other jobs, I was sort of same thing, I was just like, really eating it up and getting so much energy from doing it and like asking people, like I worked at the Toronto zoo actually. And I was like, I'd bring the camera to work, and it was just a point and shoot as well, and I'd just be taking pictures of animals or people or whatever.
So I get that passion. I feel you on that. And I also feel you on the introvertedness actually. So I'm, I'm really keen to get into this conversation. And so watching you talk about photography right now, I don't think I would have been struck by like the thought that you're introverted. So I'm wondering, how is it that you define introversion?
Patrick Leung: I think... I'm going to say it also stems towards like shyness. Not to say that people that are introverted are shy. So when I say like, I'm introverted , I'm also considered quite shy. Like it's weird. Even like seeing myself on screen right now because as I said in the beginning, I was telling you: "Hey, I'm not the greatest in front of the camera."
So it's kind of weird to look at how I come across, seeing myself on the screen right now.
Matt Korinek: Yeah.
Patrick Leung: You know, aside from being shy, I think, you know, I've always had, I guess I would, it's obviously not diagnosed, but maybe some self esteem issues that, um, that I've always been dealing with, like the longest time.
So that, again, it was a combination of being shy. I think that, um, kinda, yeah, that definitely accumulates, I guess.
Matt Korinek: For sure. I would have defined myself as shy, growing up, like very shy. I would also consider myself an introvert.
For me when I define introvert, it's not that I can't be outgoing or that I don't enjoy being with people because there's certain times when I really do and I get a lot of joy out of it. But I don't gain energy from it. If I have a really great night chatting with people, like I tend to be tired and need some time to myself to just be with myself. So that's how I identify as an introvert.
I don't think that will necessarily impact your photography per se.
In terms of shyness, it's an interesting question. When I first started this, seeing myself on camera, I totally feel you. It's like, Oh my God, that's how I talk? That's how I look, the part is on the wrong side of my head. Right? Cause when you look in the mirror, it's flipped and everything. It's just like little things that you notice about yourself that you never thought of it or whatever. So I totally feel you on that as well.
How shyness could impact your photography? I think it might be worth diving into that and you know, you talk about portraiture. What is it that you love about portraiture?
Patrick Leung: When I first got really interested in portrait photography. I still remember very clearly. I don't remember what the name of the blog was, but it featured this photographer from Seattle.
Have you heard of this photographer names Nick Onken?
Matt Korinek: Oh, I think I have actually, yeah.
Patrick Leung: He's from Seattle originally. He now lives in New York, but this was probably about, I'd say a decade ago where I came across his work through another blog and his photos had this like really fun, carefree type of vibe to it.
When I look at his photos, I feel like, Oh man, I kind of want to be there. And that kind of really struck a chord with me because like, for me, I've seen a lot of like fashion photography and conceptual photography, still life, but I always was drawn to lifestyle. Because it kind of made me feel good, looking at photos of people, smiling, having fun and being care free, that type of vibe.
And then as I started digging into it and started getting into portrait photography, it almost became a bit of an exercise for me. Almost like a challenge to kind of force myself to kind of get out of my shell and prove to myself that I, even though I'm shy. I could still approach people and be able to work with people one on one. With photography, I had a lot more difficulty, I guess, directing initially.
Matt Korinek: The bigger question that comes up as you speak about that, is are you looking to have photography, be a vehicle for change, right. And to be like: here's where I am today, this is the person I want to be, and I think photography can help me get there.
Or are you looking for your photography to reflect who you are? I mean, I think they're both possible, but there could be actually a divergence in your path.
Patrick Leung: Yeah. You know, it's kind of funny because I'm definitely more quiet and the pictures that I generally gravitate towards and the projects that I like to shoot are very like loud and, and happy and a lot of energy.
And it's funny because I have moments where I can be energetic, but I'd say for the most part, I'm definitely more low energy. So going back to your question, I'm going to say it's a bit of both.
Matt Korinek: I'm paraphrasing here and let me know if I'm wrong. There's a bit of wanting to use photography to both grow as a person and also find how photography can represent who you are, both in those times of, of like the pushing yourself into maybe in more uncomfortable area, but also like who you are when you're not pushing yourself.
Patrick Leung: Still trying to like marinate this
Matt Korinek: Yeah, Yeah. Big question.
Patrick Leung: Yeah. It's like a therapy session right now I feel.
Matt Korinek: Coaching can feel like that a bit.
The main difference is that coaching always works on the future by dealing with the present. Whereas therapy tends to go into like why it is that you're shy.
It doesn't really matter to me why you're shy. We're just figuring out: do we use it to your advantage as a photographer? Or do we try to break you out of it to create a new pathway, right?
Patrick Leung: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, I don't think I can answer like right off the bat, because I'm still in that self, the stage of my photography. Like again, you know, with portrait photography, I still feel like I kind of sell into it in some way. And it just kind of stuck.
Again, going back into like, okay, I wanted to challenge myself and I just kept going. You know, because I grew up playing a lot of sports and I feel like that competitiveness kind of keeps me going, even if it's against the grain.
But in terms of like, kind of taking them my personality and, you know, infusing into my own work. Again, I'm still kind of exploring, I'm not sure like where I can see myself. I do a lot of test shoots where I'm just kind of just having fun. Like I do mostly test shoots because I just love to shoot.
And I think every shoot I do, I'm always kind of exploring a different feeling. Maybe based on my subject, if they have a certain personality and kind of go on with that or kind of taking my own personality and kind of injecting it into the subjects that I'm photographing, but it's, yeah, it's always evolving I feel like every shoot I do.
Matt Korinek: And do you have a sense of what your goal is in terms of you want to be able to do this commercially? You want to just love photography? Like, I don't know if you're a professional or if you're a semiprofessional, where do you think you want to take it right now?
Patrick Leung: If money wasn't an issue. I feel like I would rather just do photography for fun. You know, right now, obviously I do make money out of it, but I always have these different ideas for businesses that are not even photography related because I don't want photography to get to the point where it's like work, work. Photography for me is almost like therapy.
If it gets to the point where it gets too stressful, because it feels like work. I don't think, yeah, I don't think I want that to happen. So like, if I have to really think about like my perfect day, a couple of businesses, I would love to start. It's going to sound like totally weird and silly, but like I had this idea of starting like an ice cream shop.
Matt Korinek: So cool.
Patrick Leung: And I love cafes and I love tiny homes. And so it'd be kind of again, I've been daydreaming this for years, but it'd be kind of cool to have like a tiny home and convert it into the cafe and have that as like my source of income. That'd still be fun, but allow me to like, yeah, to just pursue photography for fun. But again, right now all those things I just said are just kind of pipe dreams right now.
I don't really have a really solid game plan. I'm just. Honestly, just kind of flying by the seat of my pants right now and just going with the flow.
Matt Korinek: I'm very much a wave surfer myself.
Patrick Leung: Oh yeah?
Matt Korinek: You know, following the wave of opportunity to a certain degree. So I feel that were, you know, just sort of playing in the moment.
I think within this coaching session, I'm feeling a bit stuck in terms of where do you want to take this?
We could take this into how do you actually make some of these dreams you have come to life. And I know it's not maybe photography related, it could be ice cream related, but maybe there's a trend of you having these dreams and things stopping you. So we could talk about what it is that stops you and try to create some freedom around that.
It could be coming up with ideas around what using yourself and your shyness and your personality, and also your growth informing your photography. Cause I think there's some really juicy stuff in there.
And there could be a third option, but because we're sort of stuck on time, can we pick something that we can dig our teeth into?
Patrick Leung: I mean, I guess short term, you know, I would love to definitely pursue commercial photography. You know, again, because just looking at your work, it's just, it has that, you know, that, that lifestyle vibe that I really love.
I feel like in my life right now, there's so many different life factors that are in play right now.
If we need to kind of like narrow it down, what I need help in... it's hard to choose. I think initially it kind of wanted to see personally from you, like how you kind of overcame from just starting out to getting to where you are now. Yeah. That's probably interest in mine because right now, as I said, like, I don't really have a real plan.
I'm just meeting people and doing these test shoots. And I've been lucky where I've been here, the right people. And they're like, you know, after I do a test shoot, sometimes even a year from now, they're like, Hey, I have this friend who actually needs some portraits done. And they saw some pictures that you took of me.
And that's literally how I'm working right now. I just feel commercially is almost the, not the greatest thing to do because it's going to take a lot longer to pursue it that way.
Matt Korinek: The biggest challenge about commercial is if money is most important. Because there is no other money coming in, let's say, which is for some people, right? What tends to happen is you will end up pairing yourself with clients who have a certain perspective on what they want and you have to fit their perspective.
And the challenge that comes up in that is that your style will naturally come through based on who you are. Whatever you have right now, or actually due to your shyness and your testing of breaking into confidence like that in a way is probably showing through your photos to a certain degree.
And if they want something different than that, you sometimes have to become someone different in order to approach it a particular way. So there are times as a commercial photographer, when everything's going my way and the talent gets what we're trying to achieve. And I can just sit back and be the shy guy who's just like watching this person do something amazing and finding some great angles and finding the moments. And I don't have to direct a whole lot.
Now in those cases, sometimes I feel a little less, like I own the result because sure, I'm picking like what the moment is and what the angle is, but the talent's bringing so much, right. I'm not giving them a whole lot.
And then there's other times when you'll get talent, who doesn't fully grasp what you're trying to achieve visually, whether it's like the emotional tone or whether it's the physicality and so suddenly direction, like you need to have that skill. And so what it sounds like to me you're doing is you are working on your direction and skills so that if those commercial clients do come up, you have something to fall back on.
But if money isn't the issue, then maybe just really exploring from a place of: how can I actually use my personality in a way that gives me a style that no one else has.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: There's photographers who I've followed for years and I love their work. And when I see it, I'm like, Oh, I wish I had that in my portfolio.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: But then when I like deep down think about it, I'm like, I actually don't know if I even could. It doesn't line up with my personality
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And I can respect it from a distance, but I'm not necessarily trying to achieve that anymore.
Patrick Leung: Yeah. That totally makes sense because I'm always inspired by, you know, the photographers that I follow. So when I see something that's amazing and I want it to like emulate it. Yeah, it never works out.
It's tough because I feel like I still don't have the voice yet. And maybe it's going to take a bit more time to like stop idolizing these photographers that I looked up to and just focus on, on who I am and kind of roll with that and to create my own style.
I definitely know for a fact that in terms of style, I'm definitely not there yet.
Matt Korinek: I think you'd probably surprise yourself. My personal belief is I don't think anyone can see their own style easily, unless it's like super obvious.
It's really hard for people to be like, Oh, this is my style. And I think the reason that is is because your style is connected to how you see the world. Because you see the world that way, when you see your picture, you're like, well, that's just the world.
But when someone else looks at your picture, they don't see the world the same way you do. And so they can see your style because suddenly they would see that same situation in a completely different way yet you're opening their eyes to a new way of viewing the world. You're opening their eyes to your way of seeing.
And so I think that in all likelihood, even if you might not have as strong of a style as some of these people you look up to yet, I'd bet you that there's more of a style than you think.
Patrick Leung: I like that.
Matt Korinek: Can you sense that?
Patrick Leung: I think so again, going back into like self esteem, you know, it's tough to really think that way.
Cause I, you know, I'm generally pretty, pretty hard on myself.
Matt Korinek: I'm not judging whether or not you have a good style or a bad style. All I'm saying is that you have a style.
You as a human being, have a collection of experiences and a personality that interacts with the person on the other side of the camera, that leads to certain results. That will inform your style.
The second thing that I think is really interesting as someone who, again, I guess I could say I used to be shy. Like I'm not... clearly I have this Vlogcast, so I'm willing to put myself out there. I mean you're on it too, so maybe you're not as shy as you thought!
But like, how does your personality impact your approach?
Because to me approach is like a really key concept that actually has a way bigger impact on the final results than, than a lot of other things. Like it doesn't really matter what camera you have. I could give you my camera and you would still take your pictures because you approach a situation the same way.
What comes up for you? When I say that, like what, what are you hearing in that for yourself?
Patrick Leung: Hmm. So I'd say whenever I go into a shoot, I generally like to work with mood boards and I would say for the most part, you know, depending on the subject's, you know, personality, I would say the mood board would kind of dictate my approach in some way.
Matt Korinek: Sure. But you pick the mood board, right?
Patrick Leung: Yeah, true. Yep.
Matt Korinek: Right. So you're impacting your own potential approach by what you're choosing.
Patrick Leung: For sure, yeah.
I live on Pinterest, so that's kind of where I get all my mood boards from. But with that being said, obviously once I get to this shoot, even though I kind of studied the mood board to a certain extent, it kind of goes out the window in some aspects once I get to the shoot, because maybe my subjects personality doesn't quite fit exactly like the mood board.
I love seeing cool fashion. So maybe if the wardrobe's not exactly on point, that's obviously going to change the approach as well.
Matt Korinek: For sure.
What I think you could look at, is how your personality impacts your approach. So when you first meet the talent, maybe you're not so outgoing because you're a bit of a shy guy.
How does that impact how they emote? How much direction do you give during it. Is your eye, always to the camera. Are you pulling it down and talking to them? Are you shooting like lots of shots in a row? Are you very particular with when you press the shutter? Like all of those things are going to impact your results.
Patrick Leung: For the most part, I always try to get to know them beforehand, even like through email.
Again, going back into what I'd like to shoot is definitely like stories. Especially during the pandemic, I was really drawn to people's stories and then the FaceTime photo shoots started really popping. And so I decided to give that a shot doing FaceTime photos, but I wanted to make it almost like education for me as well.
So I kind of wanted the approach where I wanted to get to know the people that I'm photographing, how they're dealing with the pandemic. So it kind of made the story based around that.
Yeah, I would say that I always try and get to know my subject beforehand. If I don't get a chance to meet them beforehand, I always try to at least give them an idea of emotion or the story that I'd like to capture.
I don't want them to do anything that's drastically different from who they are. It's funny, even though I do work with agency models, I always tell them they want them to just kind of, like, just do you. For the most part, I just want my subjects to be who they are. So that's my approach. I would say.
Matt Korinek: I'm hearing style.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: As you were speaking, I was picturing in my head how a human being would react to a photographer, trying to get to know them ahead of the shoot, rather than just meeting them on the morning. The fact that you want to bring out some reality of who they are, rather than maybe over directing them into someone who you want them to be.
So all the things that you're doing are actually impacting your style.
Patrick Leung: Yeah, that's true I guess.
Matt Korinek: And so the thing I think you could consider is just becoming more aware of your approach and playing and experimenting with your approach to see how that gives you different results.
Patrick Leung: I like that.
Matt Korinek: What does it look like if instead of just meeting them ahead of time, you go for a coffee and an ice cream?
Patrick Leung: Yeah, for sure. You know, those types of shoots, I would say are more like my test shoots. And I think where, you know, that approach might be a bit of an issue is if I'm working with a client that has their own specific view, what would I do in that situation?
Matt Korinek: Did they hire you because they love your style and they would like you to capture that?
Or are you saying like, this is a potential client who's like: Oh, you're a good photographer. We want you to get our style.
Patrick Leung: I'd say for the most part, they like what they've seen so far of what I have.At the same time, it's hard not to like, try to get the photos that they want. Of course I need to make my clients happy, but I also want to make myself happy as well.
That's why I shoot mostly test shoots because I just, I control everything. I can just shoot the way I want and just not worry about, you know, what the clients need or want.
Matt Korinek: Yeah, there's a lot more freedom in a creative test shoot than there is working for clients, in most cases.
What I would challenge you is if they're hiring you for you and what you've created before, what's stopping you from saying: Hey, part of my workflow is meeting with the talent a day before or a week before, or having a conversation with the talent ahead of time.
What's stopping you from telling the client that?
Patrick Leung: I never thought about that! I like that. Yeah, That's definitely a gold nugget there. I never even thought about that. I just almost let the client kind of dictate, you know, whatever they need. So yeah...
Matt Korinek: But you're the one pressing the button
Patrick Leung: True.
Matt Korinek: You need to share with them what you need.
If they like what you do then it's like, here's the things I need to do to both set myself up, to set the talent up, to ensure that we have the best chance of success.
You do have to tell them that story, like you enroll them on why it is important and how that impacts your results.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: And I almost think that that's way more valuable. Like you've just added value to the whole photography process by telling them this is what I needed in order to be successful because probably most other photographers, like, yeah, I'll do what you want. I'll do what you want, whatever you, what do you want? I'll do it.
Whereas you're saying like, this is what I need and that's how I getvwhat I get, and that's why you hired me. You didn't hire me to just do whatever, which, which will happen. There will be clients who hire you for just whatever, but if they're hiring you for you and what you do, you need to educate them on what you need to have in order to be successful.
Patrick Leung: I like that. I like that a lot.
I think, um, you know, I definitely need to be more bold when it comes to working with clients. Yeah. It's definitely something to think about.
Matt Korinek: And so, so can you commit to being more bold or is there something getting in your way?
Patrick Leung: Yeah, I mean, I just have to make sure I rewatch this video and, um, I can definitely do that. Like right off the bat I just love how, you know, when you suggested that, you know, why not educate the clients and having the process of kind of me, you know, either talking with the talent beforehand and kind of get to know them and to make sure that they're comfortable. I like that. Like I never even... yeah, that's great. Like, I never even, I thought about that.
Matt Korinek: I have something for you to think about as well.
As someone who also used to be shy and still has moments of shyness. I wonder if the word bold is likely to actually stop you because suddenly it's like I'm shy and it will take me being bold in order to educate them.
Patrick Leung: Um, Hmm. I don't think it's going to stop me, but its definintely giving me a little bit more things to think about in the future.
If I am working with clients. It's hard to say. I think I would conduct an experiment and see.
Yeah. Here's what
Matt Korinek: I would say. So if bold gets you excited and makes you want to do it, then stick with bold. However, if you find that being bold actually stops you for some reason, then maybe it's being honest. And if honesty doesn't connect with you personally, maybe look at what your core values are.
So think about what are the things that are deep down important to you. And attach communicating and educating your clients to one of those core values.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Is there a core value that you have that you think educating them would connect with?
Patrick Leung: As soon as you brought the word core value, I'm going to use the word authenticity, because again, going back into what I love to shoot is like, is stories.
For example, I did a shoot with one of my colleagues who is a musician and a producer. And I just, well, yeah, let's catch up and I'll just, kind of, take photos of you in your studio.
And I told him like, Hey, don't worry about fixing your place. Just have it as is while you're working. And even though he told me like, yeah, I like to like, you know, smoke a little bit before he creates music, and I was like: go for it. Like, I want these floors to be completely you. And like what you do to kind of go through your process.
Going back to core values like, I feel like if I'm able to translate my core value of capturing authenticity of people and making that into business, that'd be amazing.
Matt Korinek: I mean, I got chills when you started talking about your core values, cause I saw you light up and I saw you get excited about this idea of authenticiy.
Patrick Leung: I love shooting stories, yeah, of people doing their thing.
Matt Korinek: Maybe when you have a client come up to you and say, we'd like to work with you. The reason you're educating them is actually like multilayered.
Number one: it's you educating them on your workflow and your approach is authentic, right? Like that's who I am. This is my authenticity as a photographer is I need these things in order to be successful.
The second part of that is I do these things so that I can get authentic moments. And so if you, as a client would like authentic moments, here's what you need to set me up with because I'm not maybe the photographer who fakes authentic moments. I'm the photographer who will capture and create the space for, and have the type of relationship with the person who's the subject of the photo shoot in a way that authenticity is evident.
Patrick Leung: Right.
Matt Korinek: And so I think that it's certainly possible to do.
I think there's a photographer called Tom Craig. I Actually think he's more of a photo journalist who also does fashion, and it's just amazing to see how his style informs his fashion work.
And so you have a real opportunity, especially if you're not in the same place, as some other photographers are where it's like, I need to make money or else, where you can authentically create relationships with clients that allow you to bring yourself fully and your style, because who you are is your style to the shoot.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: Now know that in that process, you might lose some clients.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: But then did you want to work with them anyway?
Patrick Leung: True! Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Like you even told me earlier on, you don't want to make this, your full time gig.
Patrick Leung: Again, if I had to think of my perfect day, I'm going to say no, it's not. I would be just doing it for fun.
Matt Korinek: Right. So why work towards something that you don't want? Why work towards getting lots of paying clients that work with you in a way you don't want to work?
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: You actually have this real opportunity for creative freedom because you're not attached.
Patrick Leung: Yeah... oomph.
Matt Korinek: Tell me what you're feeling right now.
Patrick Leung: I guess a bit of like mixed emotions right now. Like I, I daydream quite a bit, so it's almost like I'm just wanting to like fast forward to where I see my perfect day. But obviously it's going to take quite a bit of time to get there.
I don't know, starting a cafe and starting a business, I think I can do it. It's just a matter of like, obviously honestly, it's just really money. I mean, anyone with money can start a business. So I feel like, yeah, I would definitely love to do that someday. But again, I obviously don't have the money to start a cafe, but that'd be my dream for sure. And then um...
Matt Korinek: Have you looked into how much it costs?
Patrick Leung: Again, I haven't really dug too deep.
Matt Korinek: Right. So you have no idea if you can afford it or not.
Patrick Leung: I'm just daydreaming. But with that daydream, I feel like I'm like, I'm really adamant in eventually getting that started.
Matt Korinek: I feel like I'm a reformed daydreamer in a way. And I don't want to say it from a place of, I don't think you should continue daydreaming.
I actually think that that's the energy and the fire...
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: ... and if the dreams stay dreams, then the fire doesn't ever light.
And so what I've learned in getting to where I am today is that action trumps everything.
Patrick Leung: For sure. Yep.
Matt Korinek: So for example, I remember being like, I can't have an assistant, I can't afford one. I don't know where to look. And then I was like, why don't I just put it out there? And I got an assistant right away.
If you don't do anything, you'll definitely never get there. So if this is your dream, you got to start taking little actions to move yourself closer.
The thing I worry about the most for daydreams is that you daydream about how good something might be. And then you wait until you're 40 or 50 to get there. And when you get there, you're like this, isn't what I wanted.
So for me, I'd rather know now and start working towards it and figure out when those speed bumps happen. Do I have the energy and the passion to move past them?
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: Are you willing to put in the work to get to the top of that mountain?
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And the thing about daydreaming is you're never fully putting in the work, so you don't know what it's like yet.
Patrick Leung: Yup.
Matt Korinek: Does that make sense?
Patrick Leung: Totally. Yeah. It's funny because my buddy Wayne has always been like kind of an enabler whenever I have ideas. I think the crazy thing is I started from my buddy Wayne and my cousin and yourself, I think nobody really knows about my idea of my cafe.
Matt Korinek: Maybe I have a friend who loves your idea so much, they're willing to invest in it with you.
Patrick Leung: Maybe I should, maybe...
Matt Korinek: Here's another thing: put your daydreams out there. Because you never know what connections people have,and that they're going to make.
So the job I have today is I went for a job that I was not qualified for, and I didn't even get an interview for. But I put it out there that I wanted something like this. And someone saw that. And they basically called me up and said, I want to talk possibilities.
But if it's just in your head, that's the one drawback of daydreams they're only in your head and great things in the world aren't created by one person. Let's say even Apple. As good as Steve Jobs was it wasn't just him. If it had only stayed in his head, Apple wouldn't exist the way it does today.
Patrick Leung: True. Yeah. I think I probably need to like put my ideas out in the world a lot more. Yeah. I'm just daydreaming all the time. I really don't really share too much about my ideas.
I just know that it's something I really want to pursue and have that type of lifestyle. Wow. Okay. And you just start, uh, I need to start planning more.
Matt Korinek: It might not even be the planning, it might just be the sharing.
As someone who says that authenticity is so important. I'm sort of surprised that you don't tell people your dreams.
Patrick Leung: Uh, yeah. I don't know. I don't know why that is.
And I did tell my buddy Wayne, my cousin, only because they like that type of stuff to hear like ideas. Whereas I don't know a lot of my other friends, you know, they're more practical. So I feel like if I tell them my idea, you know, I just don't want to set myself up for like, I don't know, I get this bit of rejection or... or they think my idea's like stupid or whatever. So that's why, you know, I'm very selective on, you know, the people I tell my, my ideas too, I guess.
Matt Korinek: I totally understand. And maybe flipping how you think about their feedback could be helpful. So maybe they're not rejecting you. They're just analyzing it from their practical lens and giving you an idea of where speed bumps might lie. And they're doing it from a place of love.
Now, the other side of that I would say is expand your friend group to more people like those two other guys. Because you need some of that too.
Patrick Leung: Yup.
Matt Korinek: Listen, Steve jobs did not just go for a practical person to help start Apple. But probably over the years, a few practical people that were helpful.
Patrick Leung: Yeah. For sure.
Matt Korinek: Right? A room full of dreamers, doesn't always get stuff done either. Like everyone has their role.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: And if you're going to lead a business, understanding people's roles and what value they have to add to your business or to a conversation that's sort of on you.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Right, so, you know, if you do have really practical people who are very logical, perhaps you ask them certain questions that would benefit from their logic. And if you have like big picture, big sky thinking, then you go to another group of friends.
I would just say like, be you. Be authentic.
If they don't like your idea. That doesn't mean anything.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: It means what you make it mean. Does it mean that the idea is bad or good? Does it mean that how you delivered what was bad or good?
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Like you have no idea what goes on in people's heads when they give you feedback. So just take it as that. Oh, an extra data point.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And so what I'd love to hear from you is: what's like a commitment that you can take away that you can do in the next 24 hours to one week, that will move you further on either your goals of the cafe and or your photography goals.
Patrick Leung: I think right off the bat for photography, I think definitely communicating more with my clients in terms of my process, to be able to get more authenticity. It's funny I didn't even think about pursuing that in that way. Yeah, I think I'm definitely gonna give that a shot kind of being more honest and bold with the clients that I'll have in the future.
Cause I gotta be honest, like, I pretty much like saying yes to everything. Like again going back into like, you know, maybe not doing the shoots that I might not have the most fun doing, but I do it anyway, just because I'm always, I just think, okay, I'll just do it for the experience. And, you know, I feel like every time I shoot I'll get better in some way.
Matt Korinek: Just to remember that by framing it, that way of like, here's what I need to be successful. You're letting them say yes or no.
You're not even saying no, you're saying yes, if this is the structure.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And you know, maybe you play with what you're comfortable with and maybe you still take on some projects that you're like, you know what, I'm really going to learn from this one, or there's a good reason for it, but just consider that you're almost putting it back in their court and being like, Hey, this is how I work. And if you would like to work with me, that's what you're going to need.
Patrick Leung: I'm definintely going to use that in the way that I approach clients, for sure. Actually that might be a game changer because hopefully that'll enable me to inject more of my style.
Matt Korinek: Now you have a style! Before you weren't sure you had a style, but now you have a style, right?
Patrick Leung: Yeah, I guess... again, I think the reason why I'm always doubtful that I don't have a style is because I'm so like obsessive with looking at other photography. Just makes me think a lot less of myself when I see amazing work. Do you know what I mean? Like comparison issues, you know, I try not to compare myself too much, but it happens so that's why, you know, when I see amazing work, I'm like, well, I want like that style, but I obviously can't because that's not me.
Matt Korinek: I think a lot of photographers struggle with that, to be honest, especially when they're first starting out and, you know, they start seeing all these other amazing photographers and it's, it's intimidating. And there's like that idea of like, I'm not good enough and everything like that.
And I certainly struggled with that when I was first starting out. And probably even still every once in a while, I'll get that feeling. And I think what's helped me. I mean, it might just be time, but it's like, just knowing that I have a style because I had people come up to me and be like, Matt, I love your style.
I still don't know if I can see it today. So maybe you look at my work and you're like, Matt, I love your style. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I just shoot the way I shoot. And these are the results I get from shooting the way I shoot. Right. So I don't see the style. I just see these are the moments that I see it, and these are the moments I like.
And so when I look at other photographers nowadays, I'm like: wow, what an interesting perspective they bring to the world. I sometimes say to myself: Ooh, I wish I had their perspective.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: But because I frame it as a perspective, I know that I can never have it.
Right? So I can't have your perspective.
And what that helps me do is then look at the photo a second time and say, okay, so I can't have that perspective, but maybe there's something in this that I really like. And can I bring some piece of what I really like into my own work?
Patrick Leung: Right. Yep.
Matt Korinek: Because I know I can't have their perspective, but I know there's something about the image that I like and that I'm like, okay, how do I bring my version of this to life?
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: And to me, that's empowering again. Does that make sense?
Patrick Leung: Yeah,totally.
Matt Korinek: And how does that feel for you?
Patrick Leung: No, I think that's, that's a great point where yeah, just that mind shift, you know. I even got to the point where I'm unable to create that mind shift where I just kind of like shut down completely. But now that you say that, I like that.
I think I have kind of applied that, that mindset on occasion, but I think not enough where I'm able to put that aside, and you know, taking those ideas and just making it into my own as well.
Matt Korinek: I think what you said is a hundred percent true that when you start trying on a new mindset, you feel like, well, I have thought that way a couple times, but most of the time I don't feel that way.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And the thing is mindsets are like emotions. They occur in the moment.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: And so for me at least, it's the process of noticing when it's happening and then making a new choice in that moment to have the mindset that I would rather have.
So it wasn't like one day I decided I'm going to accept all these other photographers and bang suddenly I never worried about another photographer and what they were creating, but it is that time and time again, when I have that feeling, instead of like diving into it, I'm like:
Oh, there's that feeling again. What am I committed to? My own voice and my own style. And therefore I'm going to choose to look at it in this way.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And so you're going to have days when you still have those feelings and that's okay. That's normal.
And hopefully over time you can replace that. And so, you know, the percentages get very different. Instead of being like most of the time, I feel overwhelmed by the skill of others, suddenly it's like, Oh, I only feel that a little bit. And most of the time I'm just amazed and I use it to my own benefit.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: That's what mindset shifts can really do for you.
Patrick Leung: Oh man.
Matt Korinek: You could write it down on a piece of paper, write a mantra, put it somewhere on your fridge or something, a reminder. Whatever works for you that allows you to feel powerful when those moments occur.
Patrick Leung: I like that.
I always need those reminders. It's usually just through other Instagram posts, like little nuggets of wisdom that kind of keeps me afloat.
Definitely need to dig a bit deeper, that's for sure. My mindset, it's always been an issue of mine. So that's always gonna be an ongoing process of becoming a better version of myself.
Matt Korinek: That's all, any of us are really doing, you know. And for me, like a big catalyst was a massive breakup I had, and I ended up reading a ton of books about a variety of self development subjects. And for me, reading books really helped. So that's what I do, but I know people who do notes or have little inspirational posters or whatever.
So maybe exploring what it is that works for you. So that you can bring yourself back to your best self.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Because I know in there the guy who has confidence in what he does. You just need that person to come out more.
Yeah... yeah. I need my
Patrick Leung: alter-ego.
Matt Korinek: He's you, your ego is the voice in your head that tells you not nice things that you're currently listening to.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: So, you know, the voice in your head that says you can't do this, or you're not good enough.
Patrick Leung: Yup.
Matt Korinek: You know that voice well, right?
Patrick Leung: Yup.
Matt Korinek: Is that you?
Patrick Leung: Nope.
Matt Korinek: Cause you're the one who's listening.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: The voice is talking.
Patrick Leung: Yeah
Matt Korinek: The talking voice is not you. The talking voice is just a human condition thing.
Patrick Leung: Yep.
Matt Korinek: The human mind comes in and just says random things. And it's when we attach ourselves to it, that it lingers. So if your brain says you're not good enough and you believe it and you attach yourself to it, it keeps coming in. It's like, you're not good enough. You're not good enough. You're not good enough.
But that same brain has also said, I don't want it tomato on that sandwich. It's also said, Oh, it smells like poop right now.
That brain just says random things. And sometimes it says such ridiculous things that even you yourself are like, what does that brain telling me? Like it's being ridiculous right now.
Well, what if the fact that you're not good enough is just as ridiculous as those other random things your brain puts in there.
Patrick Leung: Yeah?
Matt Korinek: The only reason it's coming up more often is because your listening voice is letting it hit you. It's not just saying, Oh, there's that voice. It's just being stupid again.
Cause you know what happens when you empty your mind of thought? Another thought pops in.
Cause that's the voice's job. The voice's job is just to sit there and going, Hey, I don't like this. I like that. That's just what the voice does. And it's up to you whether or not you listen to it.
Patrick Leung: True.
Matt Korinek: So next time your voice says to you, you're not good enough.
Maybe you say thanks for sharing. I'm going to do it anyways.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Because I'm authentic. And deep down the real me, that's what the real me wants to do.
Patrick Leung: I like that. Oomf. Well, I'm glad I had this conversation, like it's funny, like I rarely share too much about my quote unquote struggles. I feel like if I share too much about my struggles, they might start becoming more ingrained in who I am. So I kind of, it's not a good thing, but I think I tend to kind of run away from those types of things.
But now that I've had a bit of time to kind of share a bit of my issues with photography or starting my own business, I think it's now giving me a little bit more of a push to yeah, a push to change, I guess, for lack of a better word.
Matt Korinek: And as someone who's like struggled with what I think are very similar things.
I know what it's like. And I know it's not easy. Especially at the times when the voice is very loud. Right.
And I think what you said about sharing brings up an interesting experience that I've had with the voice is that it gets stronger. If I listen to it and it gets stronger if I try to force it away.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And so sometimes people are like, well, what do you do with that? Because aren't you doing one or the other? Aren't you either listening or forcing it away?
And that's not what I do. I just accept it. I say to myself, this is what the human brain does.
It's not truth. It's not accurate.
Just the human brain will come up with random things and try to make it stick.
And so the unlock for me personally was acceptance.
I'm not trying to fight it. I'm not trying to make it go away. I'm also not engaging with it. I'm saying, Oh, there's a thought I'm not going to listen.
If I wait two minutes, another, thought's going to come in.
Cause it'll honestly be like, You're not good enough. You're not good enough. You're not good enough. Oh, I'm hungry.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Like that's how the brain works. The brain just offers up thoughts. And so if you engage with them in either way, if you're engaging with them because you believe them or engaging with them, because you're like, I don't like that thought it's going to make it stronger.
It's going to strengthen that thought. If you accept it, it can just float out and make space for the next random thought.
Mm-hmm. Sorry I'm just
Patrick Leung: trying to like unpack everything right now.
Matt Korinek: It's hard to unpack everything in a half hour call.
Patrick Leung: Yeah, I appreciate this.
I feel like I have some ideas for what I'm going to change and my action plan for the next 24 hours, and next few months.
The cafe might take a little longer to really plan that out. But yeah, it's even just nice to kind of get out my thoughts as well.
And I always just only share, yeah, things that are going well. So rarely share things that are really issues that are going through my head. So it's been kind of nice to, even though we're kind of strangers, it's almost like I'm able to open up to you because I don't really know you, which is a good thing.
Matt Korinek: Yeah.
Patrick Leung: Yeah, it's kind of a nice feeling.
Matt Korinek: So here's an interesting thing to try on:
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Vulnerability is at the heart of true human connection.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: Otherwise you're just dealing with surface stuff.
Patrick Leung: Yeah, I agree.
Matt Korinek: And so again, if that value of authenticity, if you want to have authentic relationships with people and your friends. And again, like some of them might not take to this well, I'm not saying that these conversations will be easy, but potentially if you want to live into that authenticity, being vulnerable could be a way of going about it.
Thank you so much, for sharing vulnerably. It honestly makes a difference to me as a coach to actually get into what it is that you want to see change in.
Patrick Leung: Yeah.
Matt Korinek: And I think it really will help people who listen or watch because you actually brought yourself to it.
I hope that you continue to bring yourself to your work, to your dreams. And I'm excited to see what it is that you come up with.
Patrick Leung: Thanks, Matt. Really appreciate your time, buddy.
Matt Korinek: So much for watching or listening to this episode.
I hope you got something out of my conversation with Patrick. So if you're watching this on YouTube and you've resonated with something that Patrick and I talked about, I would appreciate it if you hit the "like" button. And if you want to be sure to get the latest episodes hit the subscribe.
[TIME TO TAKE ACTION MUSIC]
So your action for today is to think about how it is that you approach photography when you're getting your best photos. And then find a way of enrolling your clients. In what you need in order to be successful.
Because at the end of the day, your client wants you to be as successful as you can be. So you can get the best results for them.
Now, if you're a photographer who thinks that you might benefit from a coaching session, just like this head over to photoproventure.com/coaching and fill out the form.
Also, if you just have a random question that you want me to answer on the vlogcast, head over to photoproventure.com/ask and I'll answer your question in a future episode.
Try one new thing and get closer to the photographer you want to be.
[CLOSING MUSIC]
