Episode 03 - Coaching Session: Sales, repeat clients and COVID
Audio:
Shownotes:
Tyler Downey on Instagram: @tylerdowneyphoto
Actions from this episode:
Try looking at your business relationships as partnerships. What if their success is your success?
Reach out to brands and businesses that you want to work with. And find out what are the problems they are facing now. And what problems may they face in the future that your photography can help solve.
Connect with an old client and set up a debrief session for a project that you worked on. Your job is to create the space where they feel completely comfortable giving you honest feedback.
Episode Cards:
DOWNLOAD, PIN & SHARE
Episode Transcript:
Matt: How do you build relationships with clients and brands in a way that doesn’t make you feel like you’re always trying to sell them something? How do you get repeat clients? And how can you navigate these crazy COVID 19 times and what can you be doing now that will set yourself up for the future?
Those are some of the things that I spoke to Tyler Downey about during our coaching session.
Hey, I’m Matt Korinek and welcome to the Photo Proventure Vlogcast.
[SONIC BRANDING AND OPENING MUSIC]
Matt: Hello Tyler. Nice to meet you.
Tyler: Thanks for doing this. This is cool.
Matt: I'm happy to spend some time with you. So tell me just a little bit about yourself as a photographer.
Tyler: My dad was taking photos my whole high school lifetime. Come college, I was having a creative void. He just sent me a camera and he's like, here's my first body with a little nifty 50 on there.
He's like, just take this and see what happens. Started just taking pictures of anything. And then that turned into projects with my roommates for no reason, just kinda creative expression for the sake of it. And then that turned into me taking graduation photos for a bunch of my friends for like three years. And then that turned into me dropping out of Florida State.
Before I got too rooted with a client base in Florida, I made the move to New York, started working with fashion once I got to the city and all of that kind of accumulated to me realizing that that is not necessarily the field that I wanted to be in.
That's like the best lesson New York has given me so far is the polarization of something I didn't want to do, was that whole fashion world, it just wasn't my vibe.
In 2020 I've taken a step back. I've just been doing a lot of reflection on me and my life and saying , okay, well if I was getting caught up in all of that, how can I get back to my roots? What am I missing?
And I think the conclusion was, I want to get more involved with outdoor adventure photography or fitness or things that promote an active lifestyle. Cause that's the kind of lifestyle I live anyways.
Matt: I think it's really cool that that's your journey and I think it's great that you've started to figure out what it is that you don't want to do. Cause sometimes I think figuring out what you don't want helps direct you more clearly into what you do want. So I guess I'm wondering what is it that you'd like to get out of today's coaching?
Tyler: I think I might have the same question. And I guess the biggest thing is just advice on breaking into that industry, right? Cause as of right now, I have zero experience. So I'm wondering if the parallels go as deep as I think they do. Should I be putting myself into outdoor environments and shooting friends and family and building more of a portfolio? Like, am I romanticizing what my portfolio looks like now? It's just such a weird middle ground right now with where I'm at.
Matt: The first thing that comes up for me that often comes up when people ask me about portfolio work is, it's like a weird catch 22 in my experience where you're never going to get hired for what you want to create. You're usually hired for what you've already created before.
I think anytime you're looking to move into a new realm, expanding the portfolio is hugely beneficial, both in terms of just getting experience under your belt.
There's little tricks and techniques that can only come from doing a shoot, failing miserably and then figuring out what it is that you need to do next time to make it better.
Tyler: Yeah. And that's exactly what my head's at. I wish I could just be doing it right now and shooting whatever I could or wanted to. But we're in this tough spot right now.
Matt: I guess is part of your question, what you could be doing now?
Tyler: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Cause I can't be explicitly shooting to build that portfolio. Right?
So I also don't want to jump the gun and start reaching out to brands having nothing to show to them. I have a portfolio that I'm proud of, but I don't have the exact template of what I can say: "this is what I'm gonna be able to do for you."
Matt: Just so I'm not giving you advice on what you're already doing, cause that would seem redundant. What are the things that you're doing right now, to get you closer to where you think you want to go?
Tyler: I've been cataloging different brands that I could see myself shooting for. And I've just, in planning different things that as soon as things settle down, I can jump the gun on and get after.
Matt: Cataloging is certainly a huge part of the game of finding the inspiration of what brands are currently up to and what you think they could be up to. Can you look at your moodboard ideas and see if they could answer a brief that you believe that the companies that you want to work for would have?
Tyler: I would say yes and no.
With a Pinterest board specifically, which is what I use 90% of the time. I think I have a bad habit of having those things lined up in my own head. I would say a lot of the times I get inspired to say, this would be a cool look or this would be a cool idea for a shoot, and then I just run with it and I try and find brands that would fit the idea instead of working the other way around.
Which is something I probably never explicitly verbalized, you know, until right now. So that's good.
Matt: And there's certainly a lot of benefit to doing things that way. It means that the creativity comes first. I think if there's attachment to working with specific brands, I think understanding their business and who their clients are, what is their story? What is their essence?
I think the mistake photographers make sometimes is, they look too much at the clients and don't bring enough of themselves, which I don't think would be the case for you because it sounds like you go the other way. But maybe during this time when when you do have some time on your hands, looking at how you can bring in a little bit more of their perspective or a little bit more of a reason for why the concept you have will really impact their brand.
Tyler: I guess my initial question off of that would be, does it seem irresponsible to have a larger collection of potential brands then or should I really whittle those down into three to five and try and really flesh out some kind of idea for them before I even pitch them? Cause a lot of the times I just have like a copy and paste cold email that I'll tweak a little bit if necessary and hope that I get a response. And if I do kind of play off of it from there. But would it be more responsible to just have a much more comprehensive, I guess the answer is obviously yes, like as I'm saying it out loud, but having a much more collective idea of what I'm going to bring to them and offer them and explicitly show them would probably make a lot more sense.
Matt: I do think it depends on where you're at in your business as well. I think if gaining client share and working with clients is the most important thing to you, then sending out as many cold emails as possible probably works. I get the sense that you feel like you want a little bit more purpose in that.
Tyler: That's been one thing that's kind of resonated with me for a while, is I've had little to no repeat clients. Most of them are somebody who either takes the bait from the cold email or they've found me and reached out, or it's word of mouth. I've always seen that successful photographers, creatives in general are normally working with a smaller set of clients, but repeatedly, and I've never really been able to crack the case there .
To have a little bit more of a relationship with any client would certainly be something that I'd be interested in. If that was even what you were suggesting there?
Matt: So coaching is an interesting thing where I don't have the answers for you.
You're going through your own journey, and I believe that my job as a coach is to ask you questions that actually allow you to reveal what your next move is to yourself in a way. And I can certainly offer ideas, but at the end of the day, if I offer you an idea and you don't resonate with it, then don't do it.
Because why would you do something that you're not passionate about? The whole reason you got into photography is cause you're passionate. Right? It's interesting. And, we don't have to go down this road, but I'm wondering why is it that you think you haven't had repeat clients?
Tyler: My immediate reaction is having some kind of active email newsletter.
Something that keeps my work in front of past clients, in a more intimate way than Instagram is something that I'm lacking. it's been one of those things on my to do list. It's been in the, the gray area of, Oh, I don't know if that's really that much of a priority to, you know, prioritize it over.
Sending out more cold emails to new people or sending out emails to past clients, but also not wanting to bother them with saying, Hey, give me more money, kind of thing.
Matt: How much time and effort is it to find and win a new client versus continuing a relationship that you've already built?
Tyler: Significantly more,
Matt: I would think so.
If you're neglecting your previous clients at the expense of all these new clients. I wonder if that's the best use of your time. And secondly, I wonder if that will create the type of relationship that you say you're looking for, which is one where there's maybe a longer-term aspect of it.
Tyler: Even just more like creative collaboration. I think that the next step for me, is 100% being able to work with not only peers in the sense of other creatives and specifically photographers or stylists, but also collaborating with my clients, right? Like actually having back and forth of what they need and what they want and them actually giving me notes on the mood board and say, Oh, well, we'd love to change this just a little bit, or this would make more sense for us. There's been very little of that with any of my clients.
Matt: What would it look like if you owned creating that type of relationship with them from the get go.
Tyler: Asking more questions instead of immediately presenting an idea or presenting anything. Just asking the questions, seeing where their head's at, where their business is at. And if they don't have a brief then asking them the questions to put together a brief for them .
Matt: Yeah, and what's better at selling an idea than actually solving the exact problem that someone has?
Tyler: Totally. Especially if it feels like their idea or it feels like they were a part of it. Just as much as I was. It's a win win for everybody.
Matt: Totally. And there's so many tangents we can go on, but let's say we continue sort of on this. What would a more one on one connection look like after the shoot that would both allow you to take some learnings from that previous shoot and set yourself up for the next one?
Tyler: I've never been good with planning the casual business lunch, get together or coffee or whatever that is supposed to look like. What is there to be said other than, "Hey, I'm just kinda calling to see if you need a photographer again". As confident as I am in like business social relationships, it's still kind of weird for me to be heavily involved in that relationship afterwards.
Matt: The two main things that always come up in my head are photographers are problem solvers and we're not just problem solvers on set in terms of the lighting or the talent or weather or whatever. We're actually like business problem solvers and so businesses search out. Creatives to solve the business problems they have. Right?
The second thing that comes up for me is that idea of selling. Cause for me, if I'm focused on myself, that's when I come from a place of, "Hey, do you want a photographer? I'm a photographer. Let's make this work." Right? Whereas what would that relationship look like if you were focused on their business?
Tyler: In like a tactical shoot or like planning a shoot, that makes total sense to me. I guess I have a problem seeing how that's different in the post shoot relationship. What are the actual questions or conversation that's held on a call like that or at a lunch like that? To me that feels like I'm still trying to sell.
Matt: What if you had something called a shoot debrief that you had after every shoot and you never asked for more business ever. Like that was like part of your own internal rules and all you did was focused on: how did the last shoot go? How did it impact your business? What did we learn from it? How would we do it differently next time?
Tyler: One, that's just valuable information on its own. I have put in zero effort to collecting up until now. you know, you see like bigger corporations, like every time I buy something on Amazon, I got an email two days later of how did it go?
So that makes total sense to me, but I've never thought to frame it like that.
Matt: See if you're focused on you. It's like I put all this energy into new clients and selling you on this idea and then my business is done. I've delivered what I was asked to deliver. But if you make it about their business, suddenly it's like, well, I delivered what we talked about, but now I want to know like how did that go?
Was there an impact?
Tyler: Worst case scenario, just where my head goes is they say, "yeah, not pleased at all, but here's why. This is what you should have been better." It might've been a radical shaking conversation to have. All you can do is get better from there, and then obviously best case scenario is that they say, went great. Here's why, and let's do it again.
Either way. That whole spectrum looks good because it comes out as a learning experience.
Matt: So, what's coming up for you right now as we've been chatting about this? Any new ideas or revelations?
Tyler: Closing sales like that have always been kind of my biggest issue, whether it be with repeat client, we're a regular client, so I'm still just kind of like soaking in and seeing, especially I think this post shift meeting would be a great thing to add into people I work with and stuff.
Matt: What I'm actually really interested in is can we come up with a wording that makes you feel powerful, and allows you to have a different relationship with closing the sale.
Tyler: How I don't like the word sale? How I just kind of cringed a little bit in that last sentence?
Matt: Well, yeah. You cringed a little bit in the sentence and then you talked about how you have problems having those conversations. Which is completely unsurprising if you're cringing while you're even saying it to someone you're not selling to. Even if you try to cover the cringe, something comes out in that, right?
Tyler: It's an inherent energy that you can feel if I'm trying to dance around certain phrases. Which I don't feel like is too much of a problem for me. I'm very much someone who wears their heart on their sleeves kind of thing, and the sales mentality has always felt a bit manipulative to me almost.
Matt: Instead of closing a sale.
What if it was starting a partnership?
Tyler: Yeah, I think absolutely. Having a more collaborative relationship, a partnership. Putting the whole relationship and that framework from the get go would hopefully help thought patterns and help my actual actions of how I interact with that person or those people and be much more fruitful for both parties.
Matt: Totally. Intention is so powerful, right? If you go into it with "I need to sell something" or even "I want to sell something" is very different than "I want to create a partnership with you."
Tyler: I really like it. I think that makes a lot more sense for me and definitely makes me feel better about approaching a potential client and it's definitely going to change how I navigate that initial conversation, the carry out and the post relationship for sure.
Matt: Right now, it's an interesting time, right? Because I would wonder if it's better.
Tyler: Tell me more.
Matt: I wonder if it's better because if you connect with them when this thing has blown over, 1. Everyone's going to be connecting with them. 2: Everyone's going to be quoting them and pitching them so that the pile of emails and, and inquiries that are going to come through are going to like skyrocket.
So to me right now is a massive opportunity to reach out and literally come from a place of, I'm actually not trying to pitch you a photography thing cause I know I can't take photos.
I want to know more about you. I want to know what your plan is to get out of this and, and how photography can support that.
Tyler: Open a dialogue for both of you to be sounding boards off of each other. , As a company, have you talked to any who don't have any alternative motives right now?
Like, let me help you, let me see what I can offer you. And vice versa. Like how are you hiring creatives right now? Or how are you looking forward to hire creatives once all of this is done and you can both just getting information off of each other to move forward once all of this is over.
Matt: Totally. Can you build a relationship with those brands now while they're clearly having problems? And if you can show yourself to be someone who's a problem solver, I think that only bodes well for you down the road when they do have the opportunity to hire a problem solver for another thing, for, let's say, photography.
Tyler: Yeah, absolutely. I dig it. I'm very into it.
Me having a very little jumping off point coming into this. I definitely feel good with how we came out the other end. For sure.
Matt: Awesome. I appreciate your time, Tyler, and listen, this is all like a test, right? You have some new actions to take and you're going to test them and see how they go. The real magic of growth comes in trying these new things and seeing what works and what doesn't work and are like closer to your truth than maybe when you just do it from like a selling perspective.
[TIME TO TAKE ACTION MUSIC]
So, I hope you got something for yourself out of my conversation with Tyler.
And the actions I’d like you to consider today are:
Number one: Try looking at your business relationships as partnerships. What if their success is your success?
Number two: Reach out to brands and businesses that you want to work with. And find out what are the problems they are facing now. And what problems may they face in the future that your photography can help solve.
And number three: Connect with an old client and set up a debrief session for a project that you worked on. Your job is to create the space where they feel completely comfortable giving you honest feedback.
Now if you’re keen to see how Tyler has taken on this advice, follow him over on Instagram @tylerdowneyphoto. I’ll leave a link in the show notes, which are available at photoproventure.com/vlogcast.
And if you have a question about anything you heard in this episode, drop me a line at photoproventure.com/ask.
Finally, if you think you want a coaching session for yourself, I have a little questionnaire on my website available at photoproventure.com/coaching that you can fill out and I’ll get back to you directly.
So try one new thing, and get closer to the photographer you want to be.
[CLOSING MUSIC]
